What does it take to turn bamboo from a traditional building material into a planetary-scale solution for construction and climate change?
In this episode, I sit down with David Sands, architect and pioneer of round-pole bamboo construction, and Russell Smith, former software executive and co-founder of Rizome, a Philippines-based bamboo company working at the intersection of carbon removal, community development, and engineered bamboo materials.
Together, we explore the full arc of bamboo’s potential: From village-scale, heart-led architecture to engineered beams capable of replacing steel, and even the possibility of future bamboo high-rises.
In this episode, we discuss:
This conversation is a deep dive into bamboo as infrastructure, climate strategy, and cultural material, and a reminder that the future of building doesn’t have to look like the past. In this podcast, we demonstrate that bamboo is a serious contender for shaping the future of cities, communities, and climate solutions.
Orin: Welcome to the Bamboo U podcast. Today we have Russell Smith and David Sands who are here from Rizome: A Philippines-based bamboo company that is planting a ton of bamboo. And really, really excited about taking bamboo to the next level, maybe even multiple-level skyscraper-level, we'll see.
But I've got them on today to talk a little bit about what the possibilities are with bamboo, both from a carbon capture point of view and also from a building and construction point of view.
But before we get into that, I really just want to learn a little bit about what got you two into bamboo. Because Russell, I know you came from software and were helping, you know, for the big transition from mainframes to cloud-based computing.
And David, you are like, you know, you've been in bamboo longer than anybody else. I didn't even know there was a bamboo building that was built and treated in 1995. And the fact that you managed to get it not only built, but you got it built within the framework of the United States of America and Hawaii is, is just absolutely incredible. So it's really, really an honor and a pleasure to have both of you here today to tell us a little bit about what you're doing.
So maybe we can start with you, David. What got you into bamboo so many years ago?
David: Sure, so I'm trained as an architect and I was building a community house with my brother and another family, and some friends on Maui. And I had just moved out of an ashram that I was in for eight years and was kind of looking for the next thing.
And then I was trying to be sustainable –It was totally off the grid–This was 30 years ago. But then they delivered the lumber for the house and it was like, it was a gut punch. It was like, this is a whole forest, and every time in the U. S. a house was being built, there's a whole forest that comes down somewhere. And I just thought, I can't be doing this, so one of the friends that helped me build it, we started the next year –doing the first bamboo house together.
Orin: Awesome, and how did you meet Russell? And I know you founded Rizome, but it sounds like Russell is now the main spearhead, or at least on the business front, to get this thing to really take off.
So how did you find Russell, and what did he tell you, Russell, to convince you to get into this situation?
David: Yeah, maybe I should have Russell tell that story.
Russell: Very good. It's only 11 years ago, actually, already, that I met David. and met Bamboo Living, the company that he had structured in Vietnam to make prefab bamboo houses.
And I had gone to Hawaii for a sabbatical for my software job to do open water swimming and just kind of decompress, see what's up. And so I rented a small house on the oceanfront in the Puna area of the Big Island, which is on the Hilo side. And right down the street, they were building this prefab house out of bamboo.
And I'm like, Oh what's this? And it caught my attention. All the other houses were kind of standard. You know, mine was a concrete block house, you know - great view, nice and everything like that, but concrete block.
And next to it was this, you know, monolithic, beautiful bamboo structure going up. And so I called. I called Bamboo Living and said, well, I want one.
And cause I thought, well, I'll build a house here. And so then met David and then I said, well, let's design one. And then we said, well, you know, why don't we design a whole community? And I can use it to earn money because I'll have six units on it. Airbnb was just starting. So I thought, oh, I'll have six units on it. I'll replace my income from the software job and I'll stay in Hawaii. Live an easy life. And so that's where we met.
Orin: Your sabbatical quickly dissolved.
Russell: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And then it was time to go back, right? Back to the, my sabbatical period was over and the job was, you know, said, are you ready to come back?
Orin: And you were like, no.
Russell: And I asked for an extension. I got a little bit of an extension and that led to a final, had to make a decision. And by that point, David had kind of brought me along and he says, you know, bamboo in the pole format is elegant, beautiful. But if we really wanted to make a planetary scale, we needed to turn it into standard building materials. So we needed to find a way to take this bamboo pole and dimensionalize it and make it into plywood size or lumber size.
And to me, that sounded like a great opportunity. And I'd launched two products in my career. One was construction equipment. The other one was software systems. And I thought, Oh, here's a chance for me to bring in my ability to launch new products and this time do it for a sustainable building material. And we thought, oh, three years and we'll be, we'll be there. And here we are, 11 years later.
Orin: 11 years later… Wondering when the final… when we're, when we're going to be there, wherever there is.
Russell: And there with David, there just keeps getting bigger. So you think it's there, but no, really there is now planetary scale. So I think that's what he, what he brought me along, is right. Hey, we can make a planetary scale impact. And for me, that was like a great opportunity. I didn't know what it meant, but it sounded exciting and inspiring.
Orin: Yeah. I mean, so I really want to talk about like, because I feel like David, you've been on the full, you know, there's this round pole versus square pole, tension in the bamboo movement. Especially at Bamboo U, we see it come up with the students and there's like these pros and cons. So I really want to talk about that.
And then Russell, I really want to talk about you know, how you're actually making the business happen because one of the big, you know, problems I think with the bamboo industry in general is just like, people really want to build with bamboo. People really want to sell bamboo. People really want lots of people to buy bamboo.
But then, when you come down to what the business is actually super difficult, right? I've experienced it. I think you guys are experiencing it. So I'm just curious, you know, what are some of the opportunities and challenges there? But before that, I think the first thing before we go into bamboo, you know round versus square… What drives you, David, to be somebody who really wants to basically create more work and suffering for yourself in order to make the possible, sorry, making the impossible possible.
David: Well, I just, I kind of love the idea of doing something impossible. You know, it's really what's pulled me along through my whole life. And so meeting you guys and seeing you're already doing that is so inspiring.
Orin: It's really funny you say that, because when people go, well, it's really great what you've done here, and it's clearly possible in Bali, but I'm in California, and it's impossible.
And I have a hard time being like, no, no, it's not impossible, it's possible, but you basically show me it totally is possible. So, I just want to take my hat off also, like, I think you're probably the only person that's gotten bamboo through the building code in a round pole, as a round pole. Is that true?
David: I think that's true.
Orin: Yeah, yeah. And how many years did it take you?
David: It was seven years. It was a 10 year labor of love, but about seven years in the code process. So it won't take that long the next time. So maybe we should start
Orin: Oh my gosh
David: So it won't take that long the next time.
Orin: So maybe we should start with that. How did you make the impossible possible, and convince a building inspector that a round pole bamboo house prefabbed in Vietnam would be a really good idea for Russell and Hawaii?
David: Sure. Well, I needed a lot of help from the universe. So basically what happened was, is after a couple of years of doing one-off houses with Bamboo Living, I thought, well, if we're really going to turn this into a business, we need a building code standard.
And so we got some money together and went to the people that write the building code for the U.S. and said, okay, we're ready to start this process.
Well, nobody there knew anything about bamboo. And well, we needed to find out about bamboo. And INBAR had this committee, Jules Janssen, a professor from the Netherlands, had started doing the International Standards Organization, like a draft to develop protocols for bamboo.
And so I thought we need to be on that committee. So I got myself invited onto the committee and the vice president of ICC who writes all the building code came on the committee with me. So it was, you know… and it, it probably saved us years and maybe a couple of million bucks, you know.
Orin: So you met the right people. The universe was conspiring hopefully in your favor, just not as fast as anybody would usually want.
David: Yeah, exactly. Seven years.
Orin: But, but it sounds like they were open to the idea.
David: Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was. They just said there's been no experience with it. There's variability in the poles. You know, there's a lot of issues that need to be addressed.
Orin: So, so if you're, if you're, somebody who's listening, and you're really inspired by bamboo, maybe you're an architect already or already a contractor, and you're in some place like, you know, Hawaii, so I guess there's lots of analogs, like Australia, for example, and they were like, really wanted to get their bamboo through the building code, how would, like… What would you tell them?
Well, if you had to give them one sentence of advice, where would you start?
David: Sure. I mean, it's definitely, it can be done. So, what you work with is people that are doing it all the time. So, there's usually university labs, there's consultants that are moving products through the building code process.
So you find those people in those labs, and then you find a bunch of money and get started.
Orin: So you need to find experts, money, and then you need to start the process and figure out and, and the experts basically, it sounds like the experts would tell you what the process is and then, and then you need to find somebody. And where did you find the money?
David: There was some friends that had a foundation, so they were willing to put up some of the funds and then we just kept not taking salaries. So I supported myself with my architectural practice.
Orin: I thought you were going to say I supported myself by eating rice and beans for three years.
David: Well, I’m still doing that. Rice, beans and salad. I skip the rice, so it's beans and salad.
Orin: How good. How good. And so, I mean, so you got Bamboo Living off the ground. And how many buildings did you build?
David: I've heard we're close to 400 now. Yeah, yeah.
Orin: Oh, wow. So how many a year is that roughly?
David: I think that we're up to, you know, doing now, maybe a building or so every month. So, you know, maybe, but it's no… it's more than that because we're doing 20 or 24 buildings. So it's back basically.
Orin: Oh, wow. That's awesome. Congratulations.
David: Thank you.
Orin: I mean, now anybody asks me, “well, it's not allowed in my country.” I'll be like, it's your job to make it allowed.
David: Yeah, you just assigned yourself.
Orin: Amazing. Okay. And so… but it sounds like, so you did get some bamboo through the building code.
David: Yeah.
Orin: And, and you got you, you even got to the point, years later, after a whole lot of buildings, you found Russell, and, and you still, you know… So tell me a little bit about why you, you still wanted to transition to… and did you end up building the house, by the way?
David: Not yet
Orin: You haven't, okay, so you never, so this led, you started wanting to build a house, and it led to a whole factory.
David: Going to, it just takes a little longer.
Orin: Multiple, multiple visits to you know, Philippines. Okay, so what led you to decide that, you know, the next step was Rizome, and partnering with Russell to drive this for you?
David: Sure. So we had done an environmental footprint for Bamboo Living, maybe an ‘08 or something like that. And the biggest impact was the plywood we were using, because we had to use wood plywood because it wasn't affordable bamboo plywood at that point, you know.
You'd have to spend hundreds of dollars for a sheet of bamboo plywood. You can't build a house and sheath the house with that.
Orin: Yeah
David: So we thought well, we need to figure this out. And then that next year, I read in a National Resource Defense Council article, on you know what was happening in terms of CO2 emissions. And I also had read a study about bamboo's sequestration – how fast it pulled CO2 out of the atmosphere. And I thought, I wonder how many acres or hectares it would take of bamboo to have a major climate impact.
So I ran the numbers for that. It was a huge amount of land, but less than, way less than, you know, trying to do that with trees or anything like that. And then I wrote up a paper and submitted it for a conference in Bangkok. And they accepted it.
And so about two weeks before the conference, the top researcher in bamboo in the world is a German professor named Walter Liese. He submitted his paper to all of the speakers. And mine was already published the agenda.
Orin: Yeah.
David: His was why bamboo did not work for carbon sequestration. And I was like, oh no!
Orin: Ironically, this is the guy that got like us also into treating bamboo to build…
David: That's right! Vertical soak diffusion. Yeah.
Orin: So Walter was behind Linda too. And here he is saying, no, no, it's not a good idea.
David: And so what happened, so I read his paper and I thought, oh my gosh… What I have to do is address every one of the issues he brings up, and they're important issues.
So bamboo is not like a tree. You can't just plant it and leave it alone forever, and it just keeps getting three-dimensionally bigger.
The bamboo, once it’s around year 20 or 30, it starts competing with itself, so the culms are trying to get to the sunlight and the culm, the individual poles, the culms are… They only have like a little more than a decade of life in them, and then they just die and rot, so that's not good storage of carbon.
Orin: Yeah. That's why you need to harvest it, right?
David: Exactly! Yeah, yeah. And then turn it into durable goods. So you've got to be able to. Pull it out of the carbon cycle so that it's, you know, locked up in something that's got a very long lifetime - like buildings. So that's really where it came from.
Orin: So basically you just wanted a carbon positive plywood.
David: Yeah, exactly.
Orin: So you're like okay, so let's start a carbon positive. plywood business.
David: Yeah, exactly. That was the beginning.
Orin: And then, Russell, how did you fit into that? Like, where, did that, how did that lend, then lead to you basically being in charge of Rizome?
Russell: Well, it's been a kind of a step by step process. Yeah, yeah. Just a sign on one day. At first it was like, oh, I can help you kind of maybe set up a dealer network or help you take it through the funding. So I had a smaller scope. Over time, the scope has expanded.
Orin: The open water swimming started shrinking.
Russell: The first one was really saying, hey, we need to fund this. So we thought, we'll do some kind of a direct public offering to raise capital amongst our peers, right? It's kind of a peer-based or peer-to-peer funding model, which again, that was ahead of its time.
But after about five years later, it started happening with crowdfunding in the United States where people could invest in businesses in small-scale through crowdfunding platforms.
But we were a little bit ahead of them at that time, it was called direct public offering. So I took that on as my brief to say, well, let's figure it out. How to do a DPO, and we thought that's how we would raise the capital to expand the business.
Because it's quite risky capital, right? We're saying, let's build bamboo building materials… But there really is not a lot of bamboo in the United States. So we needed to go to other places where the bamboo is. And often those are places where the capital is not. Especially risk capital.
So for what Rizome's bridge was, is to, able to raise some risk capital amongst our friends and families. We did private placements. We did some crowdfunding campaigns. And then use that risk capital to launch the bamboo business.
Orin: And can you walk me through just like, and our listeners, through what did it look like? Like, what does launching look like? Because I know like–and just so everybody listening understands–Rizome isn't just making bamboo plywood.
It is making bamboo plywood, but it's making basically bamboo everything. Including bamboo forests and bamboo villages or bamboo communities. And bamboo carbon credits, right?
So can you walk me through, like, how did you start and then what was the path to get to where you're going, where you are now and where you're going next?
Russell: So maybe it's best I begin on where we are today and work backwards from there. So today Rizome has three lines of business. The first one is helping companies understand their carbon footprint and figure out a strategy to use nature based solutions to decarbonize. So that's one line of Rizomes business.
The next one is what we call community growing, community bamboo growing. And that's really where we're on the ground developing bamboo in partnership with community. And that's really important for our business model that the bamboo is not planted alone or exclusively, but only in community. We find that by planting bamboo in community, the likelihood that bamboo is going to last a long time and be a carbon solution for a long time, is stronger because of the community connection.
And then the third side of Rizome is about fiber and feedstock. What are we going to do with this bamboo fiber? And today we're focused on using it as a building material, but tomorrow as we bring on more fiber, more bamboo fiber, we'll likely use it for many other applications.
There's probably five different areas that bamboo is ideal for. So that's how we're organized today. Sounds great, nicely packaged, three business units.
Orin: Well, what I really like about it is you went, you really made environmental impact the business, with carbon credits, right?
Which I think, for a lot of people, is really hard to conceptualize. Like, everybody knows about carbon credits on some level. Everybody kind of generally thinks, okay, getting paid to put carbon back into the ground, if we're assuming we're actually putting carbon back into the ground, is a really good idea.
But then most people feel like it's kind of like a peripheral thing. It's like, oh, it's like a nice to have on top of whatever I'm already doing. But it sounds like Rizome really focused on, okay, how can we make that the step one. How can we help other businesses? How can our business help other businesses to store carbon in the ground?
Which I think is, I don't know, I just think it's super powerful place to start because you're really getting down to the what I think what David mentioned, which is like, okay, how can I make this plywood, not just more affordable so I can put it in my bamboo living building, but also how can I make this plywood more affordable for the whole planet?
Russell: And it sounds good, but it was actually critical. That part is the most important part to get it launched because you have to plant the bamboo and then you have to grow it and it takes seven to ten years before you have material amounts of fiber, right? So if you don't have a way to bridge that first…
Orin: Yeah, you gotta pay those people!
Russell: Yeah, you have to grow it. And we used to call it planting, but we realized, no, no, no, no. We're growing bamboo. And to grow bamboo, that means you have to maintain it, and who's going to maintain it, well, the community will maintain it. So without the carbon financing, we don't think, at least the Rizome approach wouldn't work.
We don't have unlimited funding, right? So we have to earn the funding by providing value. So we saw that opportunity as providing value through carbon removals for corporations, then the corporations can provide advanced funding that we use to grow the bamboo, so that 10, 20 years from now, there's enough fiber in the community to make a business.
But without that, I don't see how we would get bamboo at scale.
Orin: So they're basically putting a deposit on their carbon for the next five years or?
Russell: 10 years usually.
Orin: So they're putting a 10-year deposit down. So that, I mean, just getting, just getting large organizations to trust you enough to do that is already huge, right?
Russell: That was the step function. Because it hasn't been done yet. So this is the first time that…With Bamboo… really at big scale.
Orin: Well, it's not officially recognized anywhere (that I know about) where it's like… The International Panel for Climate Change hasn't really said bamboo is a tree like they won't… It's not considered… it’s not a tree… but it's not… Even though it's a higher performer when you look at it holistically, as david mentioned earlier, if you just look at the the bamboo and you don't look at the industry and the patterns of behavior that we put into, it is really not a very high carbon performer. But as soon as you do put it into durable products, it becomes a high carbon performer, which is super interesting.
So tell me a little bit about the villages and, and the community and because this all sounds great in theory, right? Like, okay, we're going to go out, we're going to get some money, we're going to take that money, we're going to give it to some villagers that are going to plant and, as you said, grow bamboo.
But, what's that actually been like in the Philippines, where you are? And you're in you're in Southern Philippines, which is also really interesting. So you're in Mindanao, which until recently, was at war with the Philippines. So there's a whole other level of social regeneration and integration that's happening too, it sounds like.
Russell: No, broadly, yeah, very much so. It's really a community-led initiative. We're probably blessed because we are in the Philippines. And the Philippines is very family-centric, very community-centric. That's their number one perspective, is either the clan or the tribe, or the family unit, or even the university or the company, right?
So, very much a community-based country. And that really helps, because they already are focused on community. They want to make decisions as a community, they work together as a community pretty well. So I think we were able to integrate our storyline into their existing structure of community based.
And so that helps us a lot, to learn, also, how to be a partner with the community. And not come in with our model that says, “Oh, you gotta do it this way.” You actually have to come in and listen first, because you have to build community acceptance and knowledge and engagement. So it's a little bit of quite a bit of on-the-ground learning and listening.
Orin: And can you tell me a little bit about what that listening looked like in the early days when you first started? And did you know that off the bat or did you have to learn that?
Russell: We learned it. And I think the best way is we came in and said, let's plant bamboo. So if I was looking for one way to explain it, we came in and said, let's plant bamboo.
Okay, we'll plant bamboo. And guess what? They were used to planting bamboo because the government would come through every couple of years with, you know, a thousand seedlings and say, plant bamboo. They would take a picture and then they would be gone.
But we were like…we would come back and we're like, well, where's the bamboo? And they’d go, well, we didn't know you were coming back. It's not fair you're coming back. Because we were coming back to say, show us where the bamboo is so we can pay you for maintenance.
Orin: They're like, oh, you meant grow the bamboo!
Russell: Exactly, and so that was a fundamental shift for us. It is just language. And then we're like, well, how do we explain to them what growing means?
And that's where we figured out. We said tender, loving care. So we have to talk at a level that they understand. So we brought in the Rizome TLC model, which is tender loving care for the bamboo plant. Just like you would treat a child, you're going to turn that child into an adult. And when the adult is an adult, you can harvest the bamboo and provide a livelihood for the family.
So we had to talk in a model that made sense, right? And I think that's one of the biggest learnings for us, is meet them where they are rather than trying to come in with this program. But that's the challenge because on the carbon side…
Orin: Because you still have the program
Russell: The program is based on rules and regulations and structure.
Orin: Yeah.
Russell: So Rizome’s bridging this community model, which is based on tender, loving care and relationships to a structured model of, let's say, the Vera standard, right? It's based on 100 rules and 22 different sub-rules within each rule. Those are really important because carbon's intangible, right? It's invisible. And so Rizome actually has to account for it using science-based and measurements.
So we're in this kind of interesting position where at the standard level, at the trust level with the corporations, it's all based around science and data and numbers. But at the community level, it's based on handshakes and expectations.
And their expectation is that we're going to help them grow the bamboo and then we're going to turn it into something that they can earn money on.
Orin: So you have two stakeholders. You've got the corporation following the Vera standard that really wants the carbon and they pay you in advance for that. But then you've got the community who needs to be supported enough to grow the bamboo in the beginning, but ultimately they're in it to sell you the bamboo.
So I guess that brings to the next point, which is… I guess, tell me a little bit about how you went about deciding what to actually turn the bamboo into so you can agree to buy it.
Russell: And that's David. So David, as chief product officer, chief innovation officer, really had this vision. When I first met him, he showed me a list of a portfolio of products. BIPS and SIPS and all these kind of architectural products.
So he already had the idea in mind that we're going to make panelized systems: Those systems are going to be insulated, they're going to be structurally sound, they're going to have multiple purposes, both architectural and structural.
So he had this portfolio, and we're just building out that portfolio. And innovating as we go along. But there was already an IP basis that David had formed.
Orin: So you already knew kind of what you could do, but, but how did you decide where to start?
And how much bamboo… like, because I know scale, often, if you want to start… If you want to make a cute bamboo yoga shala, like we do, or even a big bamboo building, or multiple big round pole buildings, you need one amount of bamboo.But if you want to turn out thousands of planks a day or a month, you need a different amount of bamboo.
So how did you assess and determine like, okay, we have enough bamboo in Mindanao and, and we have enough bamboo for this product and that's going to do well?
David: Sure. Yeah. So there was a, it was a kind of a back and forth. So the, the biggest piece was knowing to really have an impact at the climate level. This needed to be able to scale.
And then we needed a place to start that already had the giant bamboo and had it in significant quantities, where we wouldn't be competing with another current… like we were looking in Vietnam, but there was a big paper mill and that was where all the bamboo was going.
So it was like, well, that's not really going to work because they would cut it at two years old and it's not structurally mature by then.
Orin: Yeah, they just want the cellulose. Fiber. Yeah. Exactly. Fiber, yeah.
David: Yeah. So then really it was… we'd heard stories about the giant bamboo in the Philippines and we finally found where it was and went there. And there was, you know, it was like that… An instant recognition that this is the place to start.
You know, there was significant quantities, pretty much everywhere we were going. And there was no real use for it. I mean, they would, you know, use it for fences around the property and I think some chicken coops and things like that…
Orin: No houses.
David: No, yeah, yeah, there was the tradition of the Bahay Kubo where the kind of the bamboo hut… But it wasn't a large-scale industry or use of the bamboo.
And then the next piece was okay, we need to start someplace, so we looked at as the complexity of production happened. What could we make that was the simplest and, you know, use the bamboo fairly efficiently, but not that efficiently.
And then where could we go as we… and they were also tied to amounts of available capital. So, we'd say, well, we've got this amount of money…
Orin: What machine can we buy?
David: Exactly. So we've been through that process of scaling and really… but always with that bigger vision of this needs to become a primary global building material. And to do that, it needs to be, you know, what would I say is become the most affordable building material on the planet.
And it has all of the qualities to be able to do that. So the land use numbers are so dramatically better than wood. You know, it's non extractive, so it's, you know, it's rapidly renewable
Orin: You're, you're not, you're not killing the bamboo when you harvest it… If you harvest it properly.
David: Exactly. And you're not, you know, digging up iron ore and burning a lot of fossil fuel, making steel, or same thing making cement. So it was really about you know, getting, looking at the climate impacts. And then it was so we… but we just had to match, you know, the funds that we had and just keep moving that bar forward.
Orin: And so which, what was the first product?
David: I would say it was slats. Yeah, yeah.
Orin: Just strips.
Rusell: Bamboo strips. Bamboo slats.
Orin: And who were you selling strips to?
Russell: Oh, we were selling it to people that were using it to make panels, right? So the very first element.
Orin: In the Philippines?
Russell: In Philippines, or in Asia or in the U.S.
But that slat's the key. So as you know, even as you build, part of your house is by making the slats and making them in precision, that allows you to make... You take 50 slats, put them next to each other and create a veneer, which is a 4-foot by 8-foot panel or 1.2 meters by 2.5 meters. And then those veneers can get layered together to make thicker…
Orin: Cross laminated
Russell: Cross laminated or LVL laminated
Orin: Basically CLT
Russell: CLTs or LVLs. And then we can cut those, we can rip them into lumber.
So it all starts back to the slat. So even though that was our first product, it was actually the fundamental one. We had to master that. Because you had to make each one the same size, same width, same thickness, same length. Which sounds easy, but as you know, it's a challenge, right? To take this round pole and work with it in a cooperative way and create these standardized units and we call them slats, but the slat is the key.
And then that allows us to make the veneers, and then the veneers become panels, and then the panels become lumber, and then the lumber becomes the beams and the columns.
So every day, it's about making, you know, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of slats
Orin: And so now how many years have you been in operation?
Russell: Well, we opened the press formally in October of 2022. That was the first day of turning on our lamination press.
Orin: So that was when you graduated from slats?
Russell: To a real product, like a dimensional product.
Orin: David's plywood that he wanted for Bamboo Living in the early days. Yeah, yeah, understood.
Russell: So, that was about October. And last year was all about saying yes to every customer.
So we decided our philosophy was we'd say yes to every inquiry. And that allowed our team to figure out how to make it. From doors, to floors, to cabinets, to beams, to columns.
We just said yes, yes, yes, and we tried everything. And so this year is about specialization and finding out that one or two recurring products that we can sell so that the mill can operate at a level of production and financial performance so we can grow the business.
And then we'll have our specialty products. But it is a mill, so we do need that. kind of one or two standardized products that we sell every day.
Orin: And is it okay if I ask if, considering you're saying yes to every customer, how many times did you fail?
Russell: We had a… I don't think we had any ultimate failures, but we had a few redos.
Orin: Yeah, yeah, yeah… A few hard yeses.
Russell: I think we were able, it's really quite impressive to be honest, when you watch the people. They've never been bamboo people there, right? They've never… The 80 people in our factory that work there every day weren't, like, from the bamboo industry. And so they're learning it. Our head of production was with Del Monte making pineapple products.
Our head of engineering was…
Orin: When you say pineapple products, you mean canned pineapple?
Russell: Canned pineapple, exactly. But 1.2 million units of it a month, so he was used to running a production line. And then our head of engineering worked for a corn industry and he was used to taking corn starch and turning it into dried products.
So we found some capable people that had backgrounds, but had never made bamboo. So bringing them all together into this 7,000 square meter facility–it's just become an innovation hub.
But we just said, yes - Yes, we'll do a door. Yes, we'll do even a bigger door. Yes, we'll make panels that are four meters long, even though our press was only designed to make a panel two and a half meters long… We just kept saying yes, and that led us to building up some rapid understanding of how to engineer it.
As we mentioned, being here, inspired by everything you all are doing. Now to bring in the artisan. Alright, so I think we were pretty good at getting the block and tackle done, right? The engineered panels. And now we're bringing out the artisan part of the bamboo and that's what we like to add this year.
Orin: Awesome. And so what… what is the ideal “yes” that you want to say yes to?
Russell: We love beams. That's our ideal “yes”, right? You know, our first beam was about 8 feet. Then we went to 14 feet. And now we're doing 40 foot long beams. So they're 12 meters long.
And so, and we did, you know, small exhibits at trade shows. And now we're doing two story buildings. And we'll do a four-story building and a six-story building this year. So, that's really where the heart is...
Orin: So it's really, you're trying to say yes to the bamboo skyscraper at some point
Russell: It seems possible… The bamboo sky tower… That's a big yes.
Orin: And so just if I was your, you know, beam customer. And I'm like, well, you know, I'm just not so sure about your beams guys. Like they're made out of bamboo… And like… I don't know much about bamboo and and, and why shouldn't I build it just out of a different CLT? Or out of I beams. Must be expensive, right?
Russell: Yeah, we get that… Expensive? And is it durable? Right? And does it have the strength?
Orin: And what about fire?
Russell: Fires a big one, right? So the bugs first, right?
Orin: Oh the bugs… forgot about the bugs…
Russell: So, how do we make it… how do we treat it and make it insect-resistant and then how do you make it durable, long-lasting, right? And then how do you make it meet mechanical and physical properties? And then including fire resistance.
And in the Philippines, there's a thing called a product standard, a PS mark. And so we've been taking it through the formal process of getting a good seal of approval type of approach called the PS mark.
And they tested everything. They tested our factory, they tested our supply chain, they tested our gauges on our presses, and they take us through a whole review process and give us a PS mark. So that helps us give a third party stamp of approval.
But we just have to show the data and then we find the thought-leading architects and people like yourself, right, that are saying, “Hey, I want to build with sustainable materials” and we go that way. So it's each project-by-project right now.
Orin: But how do you overcome those concerns?
Russell: Testing and data
Orin: Okay, you have the data, but what have you found that the main kind of plus points have been?
Russell: We were being surprised about price parity, so one… the biggest one, right, often comes down to –Can I afford it? Is it affordable? And we were quite happy to see that our unit costs are quite affordable, competitive with steel.
Orin: Oh wow, so you're able to compete with the steel I-beam?
Russell: It did surprise us. We thought we would be like 10 years out before we could be at parity with I-beams. But even today in the Philippines we're competitive with I-Beams
Orin: Oh wow… So you're, you're already competitive with the steel structure… so what's the next, like, hurdle if you're if you're talking to the SkyTower client?
Russell: It’s policy.
Orin: Oh it’s not allowed…
Russell: So, yeah, the idea of getting it into the building code.
So right now in the Philippines we go through municipal-level approvals. But because the municipalities can approve whatever they want, you know, municipal layers of government…
But getting it into the structural building code of the Philippines is what's going to allow the largest corporations or engineers to use it. So public policy in the Philippines really is the next big step.
Orin: So it's really just about changing minds because it sounds like it's lighter, it's stronger, it's harder, it's better for the planet, and it's affordable
Russell: And beautiful
Orin: And it's beautiful, so you don't have to cover it with a bunch of other plastic ugly stuff.
David: And it's more fire resistant than lumber. So that’s really neat to see.
Orin: Oh wow, and it's more fire resistant.
David: Yeah.
Orin: So it sounds like, I mean, it sounds like you're just at the beginning of potentially multiple sky towers and is Bamboo Living now using your plywood?
David: We're in that process where we’ve been selling everything in Philippines.
Orin: So you're already busy. So I guess the next step is expanding.
Russell: That was really exciting for us to see because we, we did think we were going to be exporting it, right? And we thought, Oh, we'll be sending it to the U. S. or somewhere else.
But we realized, oh no, Philippines imports 80 percent of its wood, 90 percent of its steel, all of its concrete… And it's a growing huge growing market.
So everything is being consumed in the Philippines. So we haven't actually had enough to share with the sister company Bamboo Living yet,
David: But we're getting close! This year we'll go from a single opening press to what? We would have nine openings by the end of the summer actually.
Orin: Nine opening press. You've got nine presses in a row, right?
Russell: There are three. There's three, but they have multiple openings. Our first one was a single opening press. It could one panel at a time and then we got a four opening press, and so it can do four at a time.
And we have another four opening press coming that can do four. So together we'll have nine openings.
Orin: So in 2024 or 2023, how much carbon do you think you're going to have, or how much carbon dioxide do you think you will have removed from the atmosphere?
Russell: Well, we've laid the groundwork. So we're planting.
So we look at it this way. So every bamboo plant we plant, we're going to take out 2. 4 tons of carbon over its first 10 years. So if you divide that on an average, you'd say 0.24 tons per plant per year. So it's not quite that way because the bamboo grows…
Orin: Yeah, there's a like bell curve there
Russell: But that's how we look at it. So for each plant we plant, we will remove 2.4 tons of carbon over its first 10 years of life. And this year we'll plant a little bit over a million.
Orin: So 2.4, my math is terrible, but…
Russell: 2.4 million, 2. 4 million tons of impact from planting this year.
Orin: And like what's that in terms of emissions?
David: Sure. Well, I can say a little bit… So we did an analysis for our carbon removal XPRIZE submittal. And basically we will get to the megaton level. I think it was 2028… or something like that.
So that's when the plants are, you know, that we've already got in the ground, are starting to mature. And then it's gonna be a steep curve from there– Increasing our planting and really getting to that gigaton level as quickly as possible.
Orin: So, so you're gonna get to a Gigaton in 2028?
David: Megaton on Megaton, it's a thousand tons.
Orin: So a thousand tons in 2028. Which is, do you know how many, like, just for listeners to think about it, like, what does that compare to the amount that's being released?
David: So the we're putting in, what is it, about 40 gigatons? You see different numbers… like 35 to 45 gigatons of CO2 by all human activity a year right now.
So getting to that gigaton level as quickly as possible is essential for addressing the climate situation.
Orin: And if you felt like, well, in terms of success, like if you look at the bamboo industry as a whole, like how much carbon do you think… What would be success from like okay, I did my job?
David: Yeah. So is solving the climate crisis... So…
Orin: Oh, yeah, that's a, that's a big, that's a big task though... So I'm just curious, like just as what you're doing… Like, what do you think the… What do you think the potential is?
David: Solving the climate crisis
Orin: No, no, I know that solving the climate crisis is the potential. And I get that. But like, just from a numbers point of view, like how much of the pieces, because it’s a big pie is going to need lots of… Probably not going to do it alone, right?
David: Right. Yeah, there'll be lots of people engaged in this, but bamboo should really be an important piece of that puzzle.
When we looked at again, our initial analysis for the XPRIZE, getting to 12 percent of global construction being bamboo-based materials, that would address one third of all human emissions.
Orin: So if 12 percent of all buildings in the future had bamboo materials, as 12 percent of the material in the building…Which I wonder, that's probably like all the steel I-beams or something, right?
David: Something like that, yeah.
Orin: That would, that would solve a third of our current yearly carbon emissions?
David: Yeah. That's looking at the, including the avoided emissions. Which is an important piece of work…
Orin: Of not using the I-Beams, yeah
So it's, it's, I mean, it's really good for me to hear because we're just here, you know, building these beautiful, kind of, inspiring, and it's very subjectively inspiring and very how do you call it? You can feel the quality of saving the planet in our structures, but we don't really have the numbers.
We don't really know, we haven't run a lot of these things that would say, okay, this is how much carbon in this particular building, and we've been very focused on a round pole… So maybe that brings me to my last question before we wrap up. Now that you've, you know, fully explored round-pole construction, probably more than most people have and trying to fit it into modern society. And you've also fully, getting into this place where you're fully on board with the square, you know laminated bamboo as an alternative for steel, wood, and concrete.
What would you say if you were to go into the future?
How would you see, what are the benefits of these two different materials and what's the role? Do you think it's all just going to be square process bamboo in the future? Or do you think that Bamboo Living, if you fast forward 20 years, would still be making beautiful, round-pole houses the way you are right now?
David: There's a role for both. I mean, what's interesting is.. it's kind of a wild number, but every ton of bamboo is soaking up 1.83 tons of CO2 out of the atmosphere. So the bamboo itself is about 50 percent carbon by dry weight, and carbon is about one third of the molecular weight of CO2.
Orin: Because you're dropping the O2.
David: Yeah exactly. So then… so what happens is with the round poles there's very little, kind of additional emissions in terms of glues and if you're building right where the bamboo's growing, there's really no shipping. So, that's an important piece of the puzzle.
And also the houses are beautiful, they're really… you know, kind of hit you at the heart level. And then in terms of becoming a primary global building material, we also need to have it replacing lots of wood, steel and concrete.
I mean, yeah… and the projection is that the square footage of buildings on earth is going to double in 40 years, which is crazy. And if we do that with wood, steel, and concrete, we're not going to be around.
Orin: Yeah, we won't need to build the cities anymore. So I mean, if I was to summarize it, it sounds like the round pole bamboo is for the village, and the square bamboo is maybe for the city.
David: It could be, but you could yeah… that's a good point… But you can also have You know, I just was in what is it? Samar Spring yesterday with Elora. Sharma Springs. Yeah, it's maybe the most beautiful building on the planet. And it's really, you know, touched me at the heart level. And so there'll always be a space for that in every setting.
And so I think that's an important piece of the puzzle as well.
Orin: Awesome. So if our listeners wanted to get into the bamboo business or wanted to get into the bamboo industry, given that you've already gone so far and it sounds like you're going to go even higher and wider, supplying bamboo to the world.
What advice would you give them?
David: Well, I'd say this is we're always looking for partners. We need to be doing this at a global level, which means in multiple countries, in multiple jurisdictions, each one with a different building code and all of that.
So really we'd be happy to start a conversation and see what's possible. And I just encourage the folks that are really interested to just start doing this like we were talking earlier is… you know, nothing's impossible. You just have to start doing it!
Orin: And be willing to wait… or work for 20 years. Hopefully, they can work for less time, right? And how about you, Russell?
Russell: Yeah, I think the same thing. You either use bamboo in the way you live, right? You buy bamboo products. Great way to do your individual part.
The other way is to become aware of your carbon footprint yourself and look for ways to decarbonize your own experience. And then if you want to be entrepreneurial, start a bamboo project. You can plant a little bit of bamboo and use that to make your own products. You know, it doesn't have to be huge.
Orin: Or your own splits.
Russell: Your own splits, exactly. It’s accessible. It doesn't have to go huge right away. Bamboo works on all levels. So I think just find your niche, but it's also just great to use bamboo products. I think that's really important.
And then everyone can advocate for policy around green building materials. That's a great opportunity for everyone to make a huge impact. Policy makes probably a bigger impact than the actual work on the ground, right? So everyone can become an advocate for bamboo as a building material through policy application.
Orin: So tell your government–it's got to be allowed.
Russell: Tell your city. Tell your code. Tell the story. Tell your newspapers. Tell your friends.
Orin: Awesome. Well, thanks for joining us, guys. It's been a great chat.
David: Such a pleasure
Orin: And we can't wait to see the first bamboo high rise whenever that happens.
Russell: Let's do it together.
Orin: Yeah, let’s do it.
Russell: Excellent. Thank you.
David: All the best.